Curse

aigleborgne · Dec 23, 2006, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Hi,

I have read in so many posts that lead attack are useless and most builds tend to avoid them.

I have been playing a sin for a long time now and I completely disagree with that fact.

My statements are for PvE because things are different in PvP.

First off, some Elites can effectively make a Lead attack useless or not wanted. These are Assassin Promise and Moebius Strike. Still, you wont probably drop your target health below 50% neither kill it without a strong combo.

If you are using AP or MS, you can effectively skip lead attack to save skill slots. That doesnt make them useless. You can just do better things because of instant recharging skills.

Now if you arent using AP or MS, off hand attack that can be used without a lead have a minimal of 8s recharge. (not looking at deadly arts)
On top of that, these skills usually have low damage except Palm Strike.

So your damage comes from your dual attack and maybe some following skills (fallen spider...).
In case of fallen spider, it usually follow Horns which hasnt a guaranted effect. But you can also use effective knockdown like Entangling asp... those have a 15-20s recharge and high mana cost.

Concerning lead attack, I agree that some are bad but many are really powerful.
Unsuspecting strike is simply the most powerful single damage skill in Assassin. Twisting Fangs can do more damage because of conditions, and as US, conditions can only be applied once. Secondly, conditions can be removed, and some enemies are immune to them.

The new nightfall lead attack cant be evade or block if you have an enchantment (which is a common fact for a sin). You can do a whole chain that cant be avoid, without using a precious elite (Fox Promise) or costly expose defense

Desperate strike can also be very good in a dedicated build.

Remember I am not saying Lead attack are necessary. They are just far from useless. I have run very strong builds that include a lead, as well as some without a lead.

Now in PvP, things are different, because you must kill quickly and to do that, you need 4-5 combo skills. Here, skiping a lead attack can be a wise choice.

ss1986v2 · Dec 23, 2006, 05:53 PM // 17:53

yeah, pvp is a different game compared to pve. and most of the assassin builds you will see are built for pvp, not pve. thats why lead attacks are ignored in most builds.

in pve, sure run whatever. skipping the lead is meant to cut down on the time till you use TF to spike out your target faster. in pve, where you may not just be trying to spike out a single target, then a lead is fine. the problem is that you need to keep the number of your attack skills down, somewhere around 3-4. and because so many ppl run the HoX, FS, TF chain, if they want a lead attack, they are going to have to invest 5 attack skills (lead, off, HoX, FS, TF). add a rez sig, and that only leaves 2 slots for utility. in pve, i still use a simple AoD sin. zip in, hit my target hard, and get back out, rinse and repeat.

aigleborgne · Dec 23, 2006, 06:17 PM // 18:17

True, but HoX is usually useless in PvE because many monsters are packed together. On top of that, many monsters die before you finish a 4-5 combo skills. Not always because you did all the damage but because soneone else did some damage too.

in PvE, I usually devote 4 skills. US WB, great damage, 4s recharge, then I have 2 duals (DB, TF for example). When I cap Moebius or AP, things change...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ss1986v2

because so many ppl run the HoX, FS, TF chain, if they want a lead attack, they are going to have to invest 5 attack skills (lead, off, HoX, FS, TF). add a rez sig, and that only leaves 2 slots for utility. in pve, i still use a simple AoD sin. zip in, hit my target hard, and get back out, rinse and repeat.

ss1986v2 · Dec 23, 2006, 06:43 PM // 18:43

i agree that HoX can be harder to get off in pve than in pvp, but ive never had any problem with landing it or rly with wasting my chain either. i never attack a target my group in working on: i wait for the battle to start, find a target in the backlines not being attacked, AoD in, hit my chain, zip out, and get rdy for the next target. you can almost always find some ranger or caster sitting back from the main fray. HoX is even more usable since the AI update. targets bunch up less, making it much easier to find a target. altough, im still testing out several new chains using new nightfall skills, so i may be changing some things up.

then again, i rly didnt like using an assassin that much in pve to start with. so, rather than try and create a build that can stay in the fray more or deal a more constant dmg, i just brought my pvp spike build plus a few different utility skills. i just played it like it was pvp. id just do what i was rly good at: spike out backline enemies and take down bosses in a snap.

AuraofMana · Dec 23, 2006, 08:21 PM // 20:21

I devote 5/8 skills to my attack chain

Sqube · Dec 26, 2006, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Aura, that's... that's a lot.

It's not as bad if you're not carrying a rez, but that kind of thing (obviously) isn't generally appreciated. So if you're carrying a rez and a self-heal... you've only got one free slot.

What's your attack chain, if you don't mind my asking?

Dutch Masterr · Dec 26, 2006, 04:03 AM // 04:03

i use leads in pve, but rarely in pvp. in pve they seem to be more usefull since your attacking large amounts of things, making it hard to get full combos off. in most pve i use assassins promise in a build like this--assassins promise, black spider strike, twisting fangs, leaping mantis sting, wild strike, death blossom, feigned neutrality, shadow refuge...depending on what im targeting, i either use the assassin promise half of the build or the leaping mantis sting half (in the order i put it in).

Saphatorael · Dec 28, 2006, 06:12 PM // 18:12

I wouldn't call them underestimated. Everybody in the pvp scene should know by now that Lead Attacks are... not smart for spiking. It's like knocking on someone's door and telling him you'll poke him very badly very, very soon.

In PvE, then yes, but who cares about an assassin's build there, as long as they deal damage, nobody will care. And either the combo will not be enough, or your target will be dead before you can finish your combo... it's almost always the same here.

Don't want to seem harsh, but err... this thread is quite obsolete (don't take this as an insult though, but you sound like 'Captain Obvious' in this thread

), most people who still play an assassin already know that it's not a problem to use in PvE. Unsuspecting Strike shines there.

Just my 2 cents.

ensoriki · Dec 28, 2006, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Leads are fine in pvp
depends on the lead
Unsuspecting....No, unsuspecting is so 9 months ago that its cruddy in pvp...
you know what you use for a lead in pvp???

Desperate strike/Dancing dagger/golden lotus strike (for energy gain)

but those are about the best you can use in pvp without going into a energy pool you dont have...

Kaleban · Dec 28, 2006, 07:18 PM // 19:18

You know, Golden Fox Strike isn't so bad. At 16 DM, it adds +31 damage, and if you're running an enchant build, can't be blocked or evaded.

Heck, you could run Golden Fox Strike - Fox Fangs - Nine Tail Strike, the combo in total costing 5, 5, 10 so 20 energy, then end with Moebius and jut keep Nine Tailing.

Then you wouldn't need to worry about missing, ever, except for the Moebius Strike. But if you chose NOT to take Mobius, and instead some other elite like Assault Enchantments, you'd have no more problems with Aegis/Guardian monks... ever again. Combine with an IAS buff, and you could WRECK any build that relies on stances or enchantments. Which is pretty much all of them.

The only issue is still Blind, but that's what Monks are for!

AuraofMana · Dec 29, 2006, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Unsuspecting Strike -> Wild Strike -> Horns of the Ox -> Falling Spider -> Twisting Fangs.
I usually use AOD, Dash, and Shadow Refuge (or Healing Signet at times) for the rest.
I stopped playing PvE sin as soon as I capped AOD and Moebius, most of the time I PvP.
yeah, most people would tell me to use a Hex-offhand attack to start the chains for PvP, but I find this build more useful. It easily kills a 60 AL target in one chain (SF-hunter =P)
The 100+ damage from Unsuspecting Strike really helps out. I am not saying my build deals more damage, but I find it useful.

slimg00dy · Jan 01, 2007, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Okay, unsuspecting strike is useless if the opponant has less than 90% (which is a waste of 10 energy), the fast recharge is awesome though, I love it, but that energy is an issue (zealous helps on it but still, it takes a lot of energy and you have to hit a lot to get that energy back if you like quick kills)
Off hand attacks like Golden Phoenix strike combined with Mobius(SP?) strike, makes it powerful, Golden phoenex strike has a weakpoint of requiring an enchantment (mesmers are an issue here), however with Golden phoenix strike you can quickly get to your dual attack like Twisting fangs or Critical strike, and then keep spamming it with MS, or you can use flourish (warrior elite). I perfer fourish cause it doesn't need to hit, because MS needs to hit to recharge all of your skills and the target must be 50% or lower health.

The problem with most assassins is that they're all offense and no defense, it's good to have some defense (especially in PVE with a party of noobs) cause you never know if another assassin will come after you (in PVP). Sroud of distress saves you 50% of the time (shadow arts 10 or higher) while your health is below 50% (It mostly saves you from melee)

Prot spirit can be a good skill to use, especially against spike casters, but it's hard to use if you want crit strikes and dagger matery attributes up at 12 or 13.

Anyways, enough rambling.

Sqube · Jan 03, 2007, 02:10 AM // 02:10

[skill=text]Parasitic Bond[/skill] synergizes quite well with [skill=text]Black Lotus Strike[/skill] if you're concerned about energy issues.

some guy · Jan 03, 2007, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Some lead attacks are good in certain builds, it all depends on the build you are using.

I use the leaping mantis sting with temple strike and jungle strike, it's a headache to all casters out there.

Some times lead attacks are useless in some builds.

Priest Of Sin · Jan 03, 2007, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Unsuspecting > all.

Except when we're talking about Temple Strike. That elite > All.

Crazyvietguy · Jan 03, 2007, 03:24 AM // 03:24

@ Aura : I found that Wild Strike < Wild Blow. Reasons being if the stance is used before your first strike wild strike is completely useless.

I use BLS, as well as the LMS (leaping mantis sting) and Jungle Strike.

I currently run (untill i cap Mobius Strike):
Leaping Mantis Sting (Lead)
Jungle Strike (Offhand)
Twisting Fangs (Dual)
Palm Strike [E] (Counts as an Offhand)
Horns of the Ox (Dual)
^^ After This combo any caster and depending on the critcal strikes warriors as well.
Other skills:
Critical Eye
Rez Sig
Dark Escape

This basically uses the first elite that you can cap (Palm Strike). I start with LMS then JS and then TF. After that combo i follow with Palm and HotO. Dark Escape and run out. Found this to be pretty successful. And it contains All early skills.

jesh · Jan 03, 2007, 03:25 AM // 03:25

No matter how much damage you deal with Unsuspecting Strike, you can only use it once per enemy, almost as a rule. What about the times when the target already has taken damage from your team? Oh, oops, that sucks for you I guess. There goes 10 energy.
Unsuspecting Strike may be nice once per enemy, but if you have to recycle your lead attack, your build will only suffer for taking it. Why? Because of the high energy cost and being unable to obtain the damage bonus on subsequent uses.

remmeh · Jan 03, 2007, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazyvietguy

@ Aura : I found that Wild Strike < Wild Blow. Reasons being if the stance is used before your first strike wild strike is completely useless.

I use BLS, as well as the LMS (leaping mantis sting) and Jungle Strike.

I currently run (untill i cap Mobius Strike):
Leaping Mantis Sting (Lead)
Jungle Strike (Offhand)
Twisting Fangs (Dual)
Palm Strike [E] (Counts as an Offhand)
Horns of the Ox (Dual)
^^ After This combo any caster and depending on the critcal strikes warriors as well.
Other skills:
Critical Eye
Rez Sig
Dark Escape

This basically uses the first elite that you can cap (Palm Strike). I start with LMS then JS and then TF. After that combo i follow with Palm and HotO. Dark Escape and run out. Found this to be pretty successful. And it contains All early skills.

Just a comment on your build, and on Jungle/Wild in general...
Jungle Strike is inferior in every way to Wild Strike. Wild has higher unconditional damage and faster recharge, and has the bonus of removing a stance if it hits.

ubermancer · Jan 03, 2007, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by remmeh

Just a comment on your build, and on Jungle/Wild in general...
Jungle Strike is inferior in every way to Wild Strike. Wild has higher unconditional damage and faster recharge, and has the bonus of removing a stance if it hits.

On a mostly unimportant side note, Ive been quasi addicted to HvH recently. Heroes, when flagged to a distance away (like a shrine) and are sufficiently far away (like after autorezzing) will run straight to the flag (or at least within range) before doing anything.

Since my Sin's main purpose is to keep their party from reforming after Ive broken it, I chose Jungle over Wild Strike (even if it is +22 dmg vs removing Dark Escape early).

Crazyvietguy · Jan 04, 2007, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by remmeh

Just a comment on your build, and on Jungle/Wild in general...
Jungle Strike is inferior in every way to Wild Strike. Wild has higher unconditional damage and faster recharge, and has the bonus of removing a stance if it hits.

I understand where your coming from, i wasnt saying Jungle strike was much better than wild strike, i was just listing what i use. I find that My build is fairly versatile in AB, PvE and sometimes RA. I actually would use wild blow over wild strike anyday, as i said in my original post. My build is mainly targeted towards squishes.. as i stated above. Plus, i dont understand how you bring up the unconditional damage, because to use jungle strike i MUST use LMS. Giving me +59 base at 16 Dagger Mastery and almost all enemies I've faced dont remove the condition within 1/4 seconds of use.

However Wild Blow > Wild Strike always.